Legislature(2001 - 2002)
03/01/2002 01:50 PM House JUD
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 346 - CONCEALED HANDGUN PERMITTEES [Contains brief reference to SB 242, the companion bill to HB 346.] Number 2140 CHAIR ROKEBERG announced that the last order of business would be HOUSE BILL NO. 346, "An Act relating to concealed handgun permittees." Number 2110 JENNIFER YUHAS, Staff to Representative Beverly Masek, Alaska State Legislature, sponsor, explained on behalf of the sponsor that HB 346 was introduced in response to inaction by the Department of Public Safety (DPS) to recognize other states under Alaska's "concealed-carry" laws. In response to questions she noted that HB 346 is the companion bill to SB 242, and that although amendments were offered for SB 242, it passed the Senate unamended. Number 2051 BRIAN JUDY, Alaska State Liaison, Institute for Legislative Action, National Rifle Association of America (NRA), testified via teleconference in support of HB 346. He said: In 1994 the Department of Public Safety disseminated a white paper on the original "conceal-permit" law, [which] was HB 351, by Representative Jeanette James. The paper was entitled "To Conceal or Not to Conceal, That is the Question," and it was full of suggestions and predictions that there would be more guns at grocery stores, on ball fields; fender-benders would become shootouts. And in fact it was the same set of warnings that we heard in every other state that had considered "right-to-carry" legislation. ... Interestingly, the Department of Public Safety has acknowledged, in hearings on this bill, [that] the outcome in Alaska has been, in fact, the same as every other state: There have been virtually no problems caused by concealed-weapon permit holders in any state. ... This is a very important point; the empirical evidence from every state that's issued permits, regardless of the level of qualification or training standards, is the same: Law-abiding citizens who have been issued right-to-carry permits are exercising their constitutional right to bear arms and their natural right to defend themselves, with the utmost responsibility. ... The major concern that we've heard expressed to this bill is that it's going to cause the State of Alaska to have to recognize permits from other states that may not have qualification or issuance standards quite to the level [of] Alaska. There are some states with tougher standards, there are some states with standards that aren't as strict as Alaska, but, again, the important point is that the evidence from everyone in these states is the same, and that is that the permittees are handling themselves responsibly. Number 1962 Self-defense is a fundamental right, and the right of self-defense does not and should not stop at state borders. As with driver's licenses, right-to-carry permits should be honored universally. And in fact studies have shown that crime rates drop when law- abiding citizens have the means to provide for their own self-protection and when criminals then know that their next potential victim might have the means to fight back. MR. JUDY continued: In 1998, SB 141 first recognized permits from other states, and, interestingly, the same concerns were raised, that we were going to have people coming into the state and we were going to have problems. But they did not materialize. In 2000, Senator Taylor had a bill - SB 294 - that clarified and broadened the number of states that Alaska would recognize. And for that bill there was little or no opposition; people were finally understanding that these people weren't going to be a problem. Unfortunately, in the last couple of years, the Department of Public Safety has been unable to provide a complete and accurate listing of all the states which Alaska recognizes. It's also a concern of ours that the web site postings that they do provide - the incomplete web site postings - [don't] necessarily give the information out, as they're required to do, to all the law enforcement agencies in the state. And that's important because all the law enforcement officers out there throughout Alaska need to know which states' permits are valid in Alaska so they can enforce the laws. So this bill - HB 346 - and its companion - SB 242, which is coming over from the Senate - would simply recognize all other states' permits. It relieves the Department of Public Safety of the burden of having to evaluate all the other states' laws, and it will effectively notify all local law enforcement agencies in the state that permits from any state are valid. Number 1866 MR. JUDY also said: Again, regarding the concern that such a law will require Alaska to recognize permits from states with lower standards, there are 50 states out there; [43] of them ... issue permits to law-abiding citizens - some are mandatory issue and some are discretionary - but every one of those state laws is different. Some are tougher, some are not as tough, but the consistent feature in every state is that permit holders are exercising their rights responsibly. The State of Alaska should not have any reservations about welcoming the law-abiding citizens of other states and honoring their permits. One last point I want to make. If you go back to that 1994 white paper, the Department of Public Safety pointed out then, rightfully, that all Alaskan's have a right to carry openly in Alaska. In fact, all law- abiding citizens, whether they're Alaskans or whether they are visiting the state, have the right to carry openly in Alaska. So what this bill really does is -- it make sense because anybody can carry in Alaska openly; this gives that small percentage of the population out there that's gone through their state's process to be licensed to carry concealed, [the ability] to carry concealed in Alaska. ... The NRA obviously urges your support for this bill, and if there are any questions, I'd be happy to respond. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked: What happens with anyone from Vermont, for example, where they're not required to have a permit to carry concealed; how is reciprocity handled then? MR. JUDY opined that if [HB 346/SB 242] became law, it would only recognize people who have permits issued by other states. Therefore, anybody from Vermont would not be able to carry in Alaska since Vermont does not issue permits. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked whether Alaskan's could carry concealed in Vermont. MR. JUDY said yes. He relayed that the way the Vermont law reads is that any law-abiding citizen can carry a firearm openly, concealed, loaded, or unloaded; "you do not need a permit to carry in Vermont." Regardless of what state people are from - as long as they are law-abiding citizens and don't have any criminal intent that could later be proven - they can carry lawfully in the state of Vermont, any way they choose. Number 1735 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ, after noting that Mr. Judy had indicated that the state's web site was inaccurate regarding reciprocity, mentioned that he "had it in front" of him and that it lists 11 states for which Alaska recognizes valid handgun permits. He asked Mr. Judy to tell him what the inaccuracies are. MR. JUDY clarified: "If I said it's inaccurate, I misspoke; what I mean is that it is incomplete." He added that there are somewhere in the ballpark of 25 states. In fact, he recalled, the DPS testified in the [Senate Judiciary Standing Committee] that there are 25 states' permits which are recognized in Alaska. Therefore, by listing only 11, 4 or 5 of which were only added [within the last two weeks since HB 346/SB 242 started moving], the web site is not providing complete information to all the law enforcement agencies out there regarding which states' permits are valid in Alaska. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ relayed that one of the concerns that he has is not a subject-matter concern but is instead "a state's rights" concern. He elaborated: If Alaska sets standards, on this subject or on any other subject, it seems to me that we have a responsibility to ensure that visitors to this state comply with those standards. You mentioned the driver's licenses; I don't know exactly, but I believe there is some national legislation about [a] uniform driver's licenses Act, and it just seems to me that there's a "state's rights" concern here that we shouldn't quickly run past. MR. JUDY suggested that that is the policy question raised by [HB 346/SB 242]. He pointed out, however, that anybody from another state who carries - either openly, as allowed under existing Alaska law, or concealed, as allowed for some states' citizens because of reciprocity - is still required to comply with Alaska's laws. Therefore, he opined, the only change would be that the permits of some states that may not have concealed- weapons-permits-issuance criteria as strict as Alaska's would be valid after the passage of [HB 346/SB 242]. Additionally, he made the claim that permits from some states which currently have issuance criteria that are not as strict as Alaska's are recognized as valid by virtue of [a portion of the current law], which says that if another state's permits are valid in Alaska, then Alaska will recognize those permits. He surmised that that is why some states are listed on the DPS web site even though their issuance criteria are not as strict as those of Alaska. Number 1565 REPRESENTATIVE JAMES asked whether [HB 346/SB 242] would require someone who had a valid permit from another state to replace that permit with an Alaska permit if he/she moved to Alaska. MR. JUDY noted that [HB 346/SB 242] would delete the 120-day limitation; thus, if somebody moved to Alaska and became an Alaskan resident, the permit from his/her former state of residence would be valid in Alaska until it expired. After that permit expired, if that person wanted to continue to carry concealed, then he/she would be required to apply for and receive an Alaskan permit. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ noted that persons who come to the state "with the intent to remain and gain employment" are required, within 90 days, to get a new driver's license. He asked Mr. Judy whether he recommends a different scheme as appropriate for a concealed-carry permit. MR. JUDY said it would be a bit different if HB 346 became law. He informed the committee that there are 25-30 states that have laws that recognize permits from other states. Currently, only Alaska, at 120 days, and Utah, at 60 days, have time limitations. If [HB 346/SB 242] becomes law as it is, Texas would recognize Alaska's law. However, Texas currently won't enter into an agreement with Alaska due to the 120-day limitation. CHAIR ROKEBERG inquired as to whether that meant that a Texan could come to Alaska, establish residency, and use their Texas permit for infinity. MR. JUDY answered that if [HB 346/SB 242] became law, a Texan with a Texas concealed handgun permit could carry in Alaska. If that Texan decided to stay in Alaska, that Texan's permit would be valid until it expired. In response to Chair Rokeberg, Mr. Judy confirmed that permits in Texas do have an expiration. He recalled that the longest permit available is for five years. Mr. Judy explained that if a person who had obtained a five-year permit moved to Alaska, then that permit would be good for five years. However, he felt that such a situation would be highly unlikely. Even if such a case happened, the permit holders are responsible individuals. People going through this permit process, regardless of the state and issuance criteria, are not causing problems. Number 1321 REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ noted that the permit holders should be protected as well. The more knowledge there is regarding who has concealed handgun permits - whether the person is a visitor or not - the more safety would be provided for concealed handgun permit holders. MR. JUDY referred to the "Uniform Crime Report" put out by the Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI), which illustrates that the states with most lenient gun laws have the lowest crime rate. He recalled that the State of Vermont, which allows anyone to carry any time, at any location, ranks 49th in crime [statistics in the United States]. The people causing problems aren't those that go through the process and are issued these concealed-carry permits. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ commented that that isn't his point, although he tended to agree with the numbers mentioned by Mr. Judy. However, he said, he feels that there should be some protection afforded to those with concealed-carry permits. He questioned whether opening [the statutes] as wide as Mr. Judy suggests would afford that level of protection. MR. JUDY said that he didn't understand what problem permit holders would face if [the statutes] were opened up; it would [merely] allow them to carry. REPRESENTATIVE JAMES announced that she is a permit holder and isn't afraid of anyone that enters the state with a [concealed- carry] permit. Number 1180 JESSE VANDERZANDEN, Executive Director, Alaska Outdoor Council (AOC), testified via teleconference in support of HB 346. He informed the committee that the AOC is composed of about 50 outdoor clubs as well as individual members. At least a dozen of those clubs are gun-oriented. There are several members that teach concealed-carry classes and have concealed-carry permits. Many of those folks have called AOC in support of HB 346 without solicitation from the AOC. Number 1077 DEL SMITH, Deputy Commissioner, Department of Public Safety (DPS), began by noting that although HB 346 would lighten DPS's workload, he wasn't sure what [HB 346] does for Alaskans. He questioned whether it's good public policy to allow everyone to come to Alaska [with a concealed-carry permit] indefinitely. Conceivably, someone from Texas or elsewhere could come to Alaska and carry a concealed gun for five years without being required to obtain an Alaskan permit. MR. SMITH, in response to Chair Rokeberg, specified that 11 [states] have [reciprocity] and three [states] are pending. He confirmed that he is in the process of officially verifying [which states have reciprocity agreements]. Number 0965 PATTY OWEN, Alaska Chapter, Million Mom March, informed the committee that the Million Mom March is a national grassroots organization for commonsense gun laws and safe kids. Ms. Owen expressed her fear that [HB 346] weakens the concealed-weapon law, as well as all other gun-safety laws, to an all-time low. [This legislation would] allow others to come into the state who haven't met Alaska's training or fingerprinting standards, and who could conceivably be teenagers. She noted that current law requires a person to be 21 before being issued a permit, and opined that HB 342 appears to repeal that portion of statute. Furthermore, the lack of a time limit regarding when someone has to apply for an Alaskan permit appears to be a big loophole. MS. OWEN posited that allowing other people to come into Alaska and carry concealed weapons, regardless of whether their states have lower standards, would, in effect, weaken Alaska's standards. She stated that she did not care whether passage of [HB 346] lightens the DPS's workload. "I am a concerned citizen and I feel like they should be doing their job, and its not the right answer to repeal good safety laws just to lighten the load; so I would just encourage some patience with what they're doing, and [encourage] upholding Alaska's standards," she said. It doesn't benefit Alaskan permit holders when they travel to other states; they still depend on the laws of other states. Therefore, she suggested, HB 346 would only benefit the newcomers to Alaska who have permits from other states. Number 0796 LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director, Alaska Network on Domestic Violence & Sexual Assault (ANDVSA), in an effort to clarify a couple of points, said: As many of you know, we are not proponents of concealed-carry but we understand the reality as we have it here. But there are two things that I would like to clarify. One is that sexual assault in Alaska has not gone down since people have been allowed to carry concealed weapons here. We remain, unfortunately, in the top five per capita in the nation in sexual assault, and we vacillate between number one and number 2; I think maybe once in the last ten years we made it down to number three, but it's not crime that carrying concealed has had an impact on. There's a study on the NRA's web site that does show several crimes where that may have had some kind of impact in other states, and for sexual assault it only says a 3 percent reduction, but it didn't really say how that percentage was derived; but that's not the case here. [There also seems to be a] notion that hidden weapons [gives] offenders some kind of pause about whether or not to commit the crime. In sexual assault, most often, offenders know their victims so they're going to know whether or not they have a concealed-carry permit; they're probably going to know whether or not a person has a weapon on them, and so that's not really going to be a deterrent effect. And then the second point was ... about [the argument that] "well everybody can carry open." Well, okay; if you carry a [weapon openly], I can see it, I can make a decision about whether or not I want to be in proximity to you and that weapon. If you're carrying concealed, I don't have that option. So I would just ask you to consider thoughtfully what you're passing through, and to take into account that not everything that's said with statistics is true for Alaska, as it might be true in other parts of the nation, and that you would thoughtfully consider whether or not to move the bill from the committee. Thank you. CHAIR ROKEBERG asked whether there have been any studies regarding the percentages of sexual assault in relation to rural and urban areas of Alaska. Number 0604 MS. HUGONIN asked whether he was referring to how many of the total number of sexual assaults might have been committed in rural areas. CHAIR ROKEBERG: Well, like a per capita incidence rate." MS. HUGONIN said not that she is aware of, adding that she would research the issue. CHAIR ROKEBERG announced that HB 346 would be held over and that the committee would probably take up SB 242. MS. YUHAS, on Representative Berkowitz's driver's license analogy, offered the comment that "driving is a privilege that we issue a permit for, [whereas] the right to carry a firearm is [a] constitutionally guaranteed right [that] the state has chosen to regulate." REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ said, "Not concealed." MS. YUHAS replied that the right to carry a weapon at all is a constitutionally guaranteed right, whereas driving is not. REPRESENTATIVE BERKOWITZ argued that carrying concealed is not a constitutional right, and that the state has the ability to regulate it. CHAIR ROKEBERG asked how long an Alaskan concealed-carry permit lasts. MS. YUHAS said five years. She noted that the DPS has suggested that HB 346 might be just for people traveling to Alaska, and, in response, she pointed out that there are other states that will not grant reciprocity if their permits are not honored in Alaska. Therefore, she offered, this bill is specifically for Alaskans so that they are able to travel to other states with peace of mind, particularly in light of terroristic threats. [HB 346 was held over.]
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